Public Discussion Forum

Corey -

Please do not despair. I predict that you and Tracy have a big shout out coming. Stay tuned brother.

J

Jack Burgess, Shangri-La 5388 & 6047

So, you gonna tear up those tickets?

J

Jack Burgess, Shangri-La 5388 & 6047

Ha. No wonder why I boarded all the wrong boats!

I said backwards, oops 😀
Core
Sent from my iPhone

And when we finish the new boat, we may have to spray paint the name and hailing port on the transom as all the money will be gone.

Jack

Jack Burgess, Shangri-La 5388 & 6047

Actually, the courtesy flag one flies when visiting a country other than one’s own is to be flown higher than the hailing port flag on a starboard halyard or spar. One can fly a flag of one’s own country directly below the hailing port flag. For example, I am from the US operating my boat which is foreign flagged in the Marshall Islands and I am visiting Martinique - I would fly the Marshall Islands flag off the stern staff with the Stars and Stripes directly below it and would fly the French flag higher than both, off a starboard spar or halyard. Done that too many times to forget the routine.

Of course, I would be flying my Selene burgee off the Jack staff on the bow.

Jack

Jack Burgess, Shangri-La 5388 & 6047

The only real reason to be foreign flagged in one of the “flag of convenience” countries is to save money. Just make sure you display it and it is always courteous to put flags of country you are visiting underneath if you can. You don’t want to appear to be a stateless vessel. I’m sure no one here would have a spray painted/hand lettered hailing port on their stern.
Corey

Sent from my iPhone

Hi Les -

I am delivering Shangri-La from our home marina on the Yeocomico River to Washburn’s Boat Yard on the Patuxuent River today for a little service work. Absolutely beautiful on the Chesapeake Bay! No birds working so the big schools of striped bass are not here yet. I will be chasing them with a fly rod in my CC soon.

Regarding taxes, no state or local jurisdiction is permitted to tax a foreign flagged vessel under the applicable federal law. But that does not mean that they won’t try. We have our version of self indulgent local officials in the US just like everywhere else. I skirmished with the Westmoreland County, Virginia taxing authority a few years ago. My hailing port was Hampton, VA, a tax free locality, but I had a slip in Westmoreland County I used less than half the year, and less than I used the Hampton slip. The assessor bluntly said I would be hearing from the County Attorney due to my refusal to pay. I heard from her, read her the law, she said she would get back to me, she did and said I was right. Problem solved. Moral of the story is know the law and know when to pick a fight.

Regarding US advocacy, that is another matter. Corey would be the expert on that topic, but he has told me that a US flagged vessel is likely to be treated more favorably than a foreign flagged vessel when and if an international problem arises. Flying the Stars and Stripes under the Flag of Convenience sure seems like a good idea. The folks in the know will know the backstory, and likely conclude that there are certainly US citizens on board the foreign flagged vessel. I am sure Corey can speak further on this topic so invite him to share his wisdom.

Best - Jack

Jack Burgess, Shangri-La 5388 & 6047

Another day, another change of wind a direction, another tack the tariffs take. It looks like the USA and China are having meaningful talks aimed at avoiding a disastrous trade war that would add to the rising cost of living, including groceries, cost our farmers their livelihoods and maybe their farms, and allow inflation to continue to ramp up. I am not sure this new development makes foreign flagging a vessel any more or less appealing in the long run, but will definitely watch the news. We are set to foreign flag 6047 and see it as the best path to owning a new vessel built in China. We can manage the $99 cruising permit and leaving the country for seven (7) days per year (we visited 27 countries since Christmas 2024 on our Shangri-La, 5388).

The up side to foreign flagging that appeals to us continues to be: No Federal US taxes or duty (even in smaller amounts still money out of our pockets); States and localities can not tax us on the vessel if located within certain boundaries (a problem in certain localities and confusing in states such as Virginia where the decision is left to the local governments; We get to visit Cuba in a year or two when we make the eastward turn towards home from the Pacific, come through the Panama Canal, and bring the new girl to her slip on the Chesapeake Bay.

The down side to foreign flagging continues to be: We must set up a foreign LLC to own the vessel, We must pay the dang lawyers their exorbitant bills for doing the confusing and delicate legal work; We must leave the USA for seven days a year (oh, the misery!), We must definitely avoid the seas north of Venezuela without prominently flying the Stars and Stripes to avoid the possibility of disappearing in a puff of smoke; We must follow the letter of the law when and if we sell 6047 as a sale in US waters would result in tariffs and duty coming due.

And hopefully Corey and the USCG will be kind to us and respect our Marshall Islands flag when we cross their paths.

Jack Burgess, Shangri-La 5388 & 6047

I was able to post the rest of my content as "edit" to a previous one. Feel free to review it. I have definitely had experience boarding US and foreign flag vessels. Lot of experience with Vieques too. We once were the invasion force of bad guys for a Wargame/Exercise there. We had a navy seal team onboard and we "blew up" the Iwo Jima and destroyed the "camp" on Vieques. We were awesome bad-guys cause we always cheated at the DoD's war-games.

Richard - You are absolutely correct. The USA has bombed the heck out of Bikini Atoll, just as we did Vieques in the Spanish Virgin Islands southeast of Puerto Rico. Vieques has a very high cancer rate when compared with similar populations, an amazing Bio Bay, where the bioluminescence is so prolific that when you dive into the water at night you only see light (maybe like a peyote high) and the folks on the boat see you completely illuminated underwater, and great bonefish flats. There is still lots of ordnance which is live and unexploded on the tidal flats there. I was bonefishing on a flat there not so long ago (in old person years) and a Navy Guy in a jeep drove down, instructed me with a bullhorn to walk very gingerly to where he was, and then rejoiced when I did not disappear in a cloud of smoke after a bang. Then he gave me a vigorous tongue lashing for trespassing on forbidden territory, told me to up anchor and leave. So I told him . . . Well, I did as told. Not sure if the natives from the Marshall Islands glow in the dark or not, but would like to know what treasures we left on Bikini from our war games and testing there.

Corey - Yes, I have been Fahrenheit 451’d numerous times in my life, sort of a badge of honor, like being the only guy you know who was actually deported from the Dominican Republic or ran with the Bulls in the Fiesta de San Fermin in Pamplona, Spain, or even just got kicked out of the forbidden zone on Vieques. But I have promised to try real hard to abide and so far neither Guy Montag nor the Navy Officer from the DR nor the Spanish Miura bulls (or even the Navy guy in the jeep) have come for me again.

So Corey, since your depraved Bayliner behavior seems to be under control (congratulations my friend) and you are likely quite far along in your 12 step program to avoid relapse, I believe that your fear of censorship is likely just post-Bayliner delirium tremens or something. Maybe if you just wear your special T-shirt for an hour or two and sip a nice Cabernet or Pinot Noir, things will calm down and everything will be just fine.

To encourage meaningful content to this thread Corey, since you have a little Coast Guard experience in much of the Caribbean and elsewhere, please share with us the downsides to NOT flying the Stars and Stripes as a vessel’s primary identifying flag.

Jack

Jack Burgess, Shangri-La 5388

So weird. My posting keeps being censored and cutoff like I’m Jack Burgess or something…

Here is the rest of my post:

On the plus side of foreign flag, for you smugglers - the USCG can’t board you in international waters without your consent unless US has an agreement with the country to do so or unless they contact the country and get permission. On the minus side, if you are in a foreign country that is not friendly to the US, your boat is free game. I am assuming no one is chartering their boat out (coastwise trade) because that really changes things. Of course, if you are hanging out off the coast of Venezuela, the US Navy might just blow you out of the water as a foreign flagged vessel with current administration policy!  {Not making a political statement, just citing recent events}

If you do not have the flag and country on the stern, you are making a case for any country’s customs/boarding officer’s to “assimilate you to a stateless vessel”. You are free game for anyone as a stateless vessel. As Jack points out, always better to look the part of your state of flagging/registry. 

Corey

Ps. I am not a maritime lawyer so there are some caveats and slight simplification here. Maritime law was a required semester course at USCGA!

The biggest downsides have to do with NOT being a US flagged vessel.

We do, of course, have the ability to fly the Stars and Stripes just below the Flag of Convenience, likely demonstrating and communicating to those who understand such things not only our legal and financial awareness, but our national affiliation. Our Stars and Stripes will certainly be thusly flown, as will our Selene burgee on our jackstaff at the bow.

Jack

Jack Burgess, Shangri-La 5388

The biggest downsides have to do with NOT being a US flagged vessel.

The research concerning foreign flagging or using a “Flag of Convenience” goes deeper. The photo shows some irregularities, and perhaps a conscious disregard for the applicable law. Foreign Flagging regulations require not only that the hailing port, such as “BIKINI, MI”, be displayed on the transom of the vessel, but that the pertinent nation’s flag be prominently flown. In the photo, again attached here as photo six, the hailing port is simply stated as being NASSAU, presumably the Nassau in the Bahamas. Interestingly, the flag being flown is not that of the Bahamas, but appears to be the flag of Liberia. Perhaps the owner was a bit distracted.

Liberia was once the most popular nation used by commercial carriers to operate their vessels with a flag of convenience as various financial incentives were provided by the employment of such practice. Liberia’s story is quite interesting. Liberia was Africa’s first independent republic and it was formed by former black slaves from the United States and the Caribbean. Its flag, called the Lone Star, is a member of the Stars and Stripes family of flags because of the country’s heritage and association with the USA. Unfortunately, due to political unrest, civil wars and a general deterioration of the social fabric in the country, Liberia’s popularity as a nation to use for Foreign Flagging purposes has declined.

Many other nations are popular as Foreign Flag choices. Panama, Bahamas, Marshall Islands, Malta, Antigua, Belize and the Cayman Islands are all available. I have attached a few additional photos of foreign flagged vessels and their owners for those who are interested in this topic. Credit to my good friend Greg Singer for sharing the images with me.

Attached as photo seven is the flag of the Marshall Islands which we will fly on Selene 6047 Shangri-La, scheduled to be completed and delivered in Spring 2026. The flag was designed by the President’s wife, Emlain Kabua, and adopted in 1979 when Marshall Islands became a self governing territory. The meaning of the flag is said to be as follows -

The deep blue background represents the Pacific Ocean. The white and orange bands represent the Ratak (Sunrise) and Ralik (Sunset) chains, respectively. The colors of orange (for courage) and white (for peace) are also recognized. The star represents the cross of Christianity, with each of the 24 points signifying a municipal district of the Republic of Marshall Islands.

And we just think the flag looks cool!

Jack

Jack Burgess, Shangri-La 5388

Yes foreign flagging works now. The other option is well,,,, it is a big beautiful world, and Selenes are meant to see the world, so take delivery in Asia, come to the Philippines, where foreign flagged, any flag, enters free and stays indefinitely, with no fees at all. Start your adventure in paradise and see the world.. so yes new Selene owners do have options,

Cheers from paradise
Brian