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Holding tank sensor - could this be “the one”?
Don McGarry

I’ve been trying to get a working / better holding tank sensor. I was gonna do the maretron submerged pressure transducers and got about halfway done trying to pull the wiring and then hit a bit of a wall trying to get the wire the last little bit from the master head into the engine room.


I then stumbled across these things:

https://safiery.com/product/tank-level-sensor-star-tank-phased-coherent-radar-battery/


They are wireless, work with my cerbo, and since they are radar based they should work fine with the 1” thick FRP tanks we have (I had looked into ultrasonic but from the literature 1” FRP was a bridge too far for them).


So I figured I would buy two of them and give them a shot. Well I “installed” them (e.g. I turned them on, calibrated them I think, and then taped them onto the tank in the spot that seemed to give me the right reading).


They seem to be working pretty great! Time will tell for sure, but we used the head a fair amount and did a pump out and the darn things seem to be pretty accurate. Once I am convinced I’ll glue them onto the tank and will probably pick up ones for water and fuel tanks as well.


All the setup is done on the cerbo. I have my Cerbo connected to my n2k network so the data in on there too.

Kevin Greene

This looks great! I just ordered two of them. Are you using the native BT in the Cerbo or did you add the Nano BT adapter?


Kevin

Endeavor 5329

Don McGarry

I'm using native bluetooth. My cerbo is in the pilothouse and they seemed to connect just fine.


Ironically the most challenging part in the process was dealing with USPS delivering the package (it comes from Australia). They needed a signature and my local post office has an inordinate amount of drama for some reason.

Nick Vespa

Funny timing. I ordered three of these earlier this month. Waiting for them to clear customs. I did purchase a TPlink BT adapter from Amazon just in case. Our Cerbo is down in the commissary, so I'm not sure how well the signal will be received.


Nick

LunaSea 5318

Don McGarry

I am still working on finding the ideal location on the tank to mount the sensor to get accurate readings. That said they seem to be working pretty well. Here is a screenshot of what it looks like on the cerbo for those interested.

Nick Vespa

What's your plan for the fuel tanks since you'll need to cut holes in the top and I'm guessing there will be baffles to deal with in terms of placement?


Nick

LunaSea 5318

Don McGarry

With these sensors there is no need to cut a hole. They just sit on the top of the tank and the radar will happily penetrate the FRP to reflect against the fluid in the tank. In terms of placement I have just been moving the sensor around on the top of the tank as it fills up just to see how much variance there is in the measurements. Once I find a spot that works well I'll just glue the sensor to the tank and call it a day.

Mike Woolf

This sounds pretty awesome, except that I do not have a cerbo installed :-). The website for this device makes it sound like it is designed only for use with a Cerbo. A quick web search didn't reveal any other non-industrial radar gauges. Are any of you aware of a device of this sort that has a wired output, whether resistive or NMEA2K?

Kevin Greene

Mike - their website has a great AI Chatbot. It provided some great answers. Related to your question, I asked "What are the options to display information from the Star-Tank radar tank sensor?"


It provided 4 options including "STAR-touch Display: Our dedicated display solution for visualizing tank level data".

Mike Woolf

I have habitually ignored the AI chatbots as being a waste of time, but maybe they're getting better finally. Thanks for pointing that out.

Kevin Greene

Let us know where you end up placing them on the holding tanks. I haven't seen the specs on our MSR holding tank capacity, but your 30 gallon amount makes sense and our forward tank is also 65 gallons.


When we pump out, we can never get the Tankwatch to show Empty (green) for either tank, so I'm assuming they are never fully emptied. I noticed on the calibration instructions, they want the tank completely empty, or you need to aim the sensor with nothing in the way to calibrate empty. Do you have this same issue with your tanks and the Tankwatch? I'm curious how you performed the calibration. The other option is they are basically empty and the Tankwatch just doesn't show it.


Kevin

Endeavor 5329

Corey Chamness
This does sound great. My Cerbo is way back in the Laz though. I bet fuel tanks would work great but maybe not my black water tanks or the forward water tank.

Corey
Sent from my iPhone

Keith Rea

Hi Kevin,


We have TankWatch 4 sensors on our black water tank and it really does need to be nearly fully empty in order to illuminate the 'Empty' LED.


Another thought is that possibly the installer didn't oriented the 'empty' float correctly. See this wiring diagram. The recessed shoulder on that float needs to face down while the other two (mid and full) face up. If they didn't do that on the initial install then the 'empty' LED may never light up. Easy to change...except for the potential messiness :/


Keith

Blue Moon 5349

Mike Woolf
I have TW4 as well.  Back when it was legal for me to empty the tank overboard using the macerator pump, I would get a green empty reading.  I have never managed to empty the tank quite that far using a pumpout.

Mike (he/him) from a phone

Nick Vespa

Correct. They don't work through metal, and I thought my tanks were metal. I assumed wrong, so I won't have to worry about needing holes, thankfully!


How did you calibrate the sensors? According to the manual it looks like you don't need to do this with empty tanks.


It's going to be a while before I can get to the boat, so any advice/pictures you can supply are appreciated.


Thanks!


Nick

LunaSea 5318

Don McGarry

My tanks were not empty at the time so I just stood in the cockpit and aimed the sensor into the sky. It seems to have worked :-).

Mark Tilden
Team:

I've been following this discussion of tank sensors with interest. I've had several "rounds" in this fight:

1. When we built the second Koinonia (we call her "K2" for short), I knew I didn't want the WEMA float gauges that Jet Tern uses as "standard". Between mechanical "sticking" and the inaccuracies and unreliability of variable resistance gauges, I told them to not install those at all. Instead, we put in Headhunter's "Tank Sentry" system. It is based on a tiny air compressor/sensor module that sits on top of the tank and pumps a small amount of air down a dip tube. The pressure that appears in the dip tube is proportional to the tank level because it's having to push the fluid in that dip tube down to the bottom of the tube. The little sensor module is both the air compressor and the sensor. You can hook up these sensor modules to any number of their bar-graph displays. We have a nice bar graph display in the pilothouse for all 6 tanks (two fuel, two fresh water, gray water and black water). This system is also cool because some of the display modules also have a programmable relay that you can program to close or open at various tank levels. So, for example, I have the gray water tank display setup to automatically pump our gray water tank overboard when it reaches 70% (assuming I don't put the system in "hold" mode where it disables the automatic pumping). I use this capability for both my gray water and to control our Type 1 MSD (Groco "Thermopure") marine sanitation device (a.k.a affectionately known as "the turd burner").

This system has proven to be pretty reliable and it's nice that there's a simple bar graph display that you can repeat anywhere. We have the six bar graphs in the pilothouse and then a "repeater" in the master stateroom for the water/waste tanks.

The down-sides to this system are:
1. While the compressor/sensor modules have been pretty reliable, when they do fail (I've had one fail in 15 years), they are expensive to replace. The modules are close to 1 boat unit (i.e. $1,000). They've over doubled in price in 15 years.
2. The compressor/sensor module makes a little bit of noise when it's "charging". It makes a more significant noise when you first power it up and it's purging the dip tube. But then, every so often (depending on how much the tank level is changing), the little compressor makes a relatively low-level sound as it re-charges the dip tube.
3. There's no direct way to interface this system to N2K.
4. There's no way to calibrate this system for non-rectangular tanks. It just reads tank level. That's still a reasonably good indicator of level, but especially in the fuel tanks doesn't give you an accurate indicator of fuel remaining, since the bottom portion of the tank holds less than the top portion of the tank.

2. Several years ago, I put Maretron pressure sensors in the water, fuel, and gray water tanks. These pressure sensors all connect to one "Fluid Pressure Monitor" module (FPM100). One FPM can connect to up to 6 sensors---which is convenient given our number of tanks. Installing the pressure sensor in all but the black water tanks was relatively easy because all of the tanks have either a drain valve and/or a site gauge port at the bottom of the tank, so it's pretty easy to add one of these sensors to the bottom of the tanks. They are quite reliable and simple (with one exception I'll describe below). Advantages of this system are:

1. It's pretty easy to install on at least all the tanks except the black water/holding tank. It's tricky on the black water just because there's no drain or other port on the bottom of the tank in most cases. The pumpouts are typically dip-tubes through the top of the tank.
2. The sensors rely only on static pressure, so there's no air compressor or other plumbing required.
3. It's also nice that you can calibrate this system for non-rectangular tanks. Our fuel tanks, in particular, are "hull shaped" and so the level of fuel in the tank doesn't directly correspond to the amount of fuel in the tank, since they are narrower at the bottom than the top. The Maretron system will allow you to calibrate the level sensors so that they pretty accurately read the actual amount of fluid in the tank.....not just the fluid height.
4. This system puts the tank level information on NMEA 2000, so you can see it just about anywhere---including remotely.
5. With appropriate hardware/software, like N2KView, you can also setup similar programmable relay closures on tank levels if you want to control things or sound an alarm.

The one big issue I had with this system is monitoring the black water tank. YOu have to use a "submersible" pressure sensor that goes in from the top of the tank and hangs near the bottom of the tank. The first sensor I got from Maretron would fairly quickly plug up and become inaccurate/unresponsive. I complained about it and--to their credit--they replaced the sensor, even though it was no longer under warranty. They said that the sensor they were using had this problem of plugging up and that the newer design was more robust and less prone to that problem. We'll see. It's been reliable so far.

3. In the course of fiddling/fighting with the plugged-up submersible sensor, I also acquired one of Maretron's "ultrasonic" sensors that sounds fairly similar (but perhaps a different technology) than the one you've been describing from Safiery. The ultrasonic sensor does require a hole in the tank--it can't shoot through a fiberglass tank. It connects directly to NMEA 2000--it doesn't need to go through a FPM100 module. It's sitting on my shelf as a "backup" in the event that I have trouble with the newer submersible sensor.

So......with my long-winded explanation, I'm interested in that Safriery solution--if only because I'm always interested in new solutions. I noticed that in the manual there's a comparison to ultrasonic sensors (page 7 and 8). I'm completely satisfied with the Maretron pressure sensors for all the tanks except the Black Water tank--and I *may* be satisfied with the new black water sensor......time will tell.

I'll be curious to hear about your experience with battery life. I also don't have a Cerbo (I have a Color Control GX, and I guess there's an external module I could add that would support that tank sensor). I would have preferred that they offer a direct N2K connected version, like the Maretron one (and then you probably also wouldn't have to have a battery), but I do recognize that the Bluetooth/battery combination eliminates the wiring hassles.

Anyway......I just thought I'd throw in my experience with tank level sensing. It's been quite a road since we took delivery of our boat 15+ years ago.....

Mark Tilden
Selene 60 "Koinonia"


Nick Vespa

Appreciate the write-up, Mark, as always!


Your Victron CCGX lacks Bluetooth, but that's easily remedied with an inexpensive USB BT adapter. You can also use a USB extension cable to move the adapter into a location to improve reception/range.


Nick

LunaSea 5318

Carl Gulledge

For those interested in wired NMEA2000 connected solutions I can fill in a few details on top of Marks migration story. Like Mark, we dumped the WEMA sensors long ago and moved to pressure sensors on all tanks including fuel with the exception of the black tank for the reasons he stated. We did though install the Maretron ultrasonic sensor on the black tank and it works beautifully with two notes - if you install a TLM100/150 be sure to also install the protective cup to keep the surface of the sensor free from debris or consider using the focus tube accessory for the best results. Second, when the tank is pumped bone dry, on occasion the sludge left in the bottom of the tank will apparently “bubble” causing the sensor to report a rapid filling tank which a short time later “bursts” back to zero (empty) and then repeats. This cycle generally goes away after a day and is easily rectified by flushing a few head bowls into the tank - apparently to cover over the sludge. This would likely not be an issue if we had installed a focus tube. All up though, the sensor has proven reliable and trouble free. It installs in the top of the tank filling the opening left by the removed WEMA gauge (If the WEMA uses an SAE J1810 5-hole mounting pattern).


As noted, we used pressure sensors on the remaining tanks. These are attached to the external drains on the fuel tanks only. On the fresh water and gray tanks they are dropped into tank - leaving our drains clear for maintenance use. If you install in such a manner, I recommend you feed enough cable to allow the ducer to literally lay down on the bottom of the tank. This to prevent the ducer from “swinging” in rough water when the tanks are empty.


While it is certainly nice to have a high degree of precision on the tank readings it certainly is not critical and of course having such does require calibration which took a bit of planning and intention for our fuel tanks. The precision is really appreciated when fueling as we usually place an iPad or phone in the window of the salon to display the tank level in real-time.


Carl

MV Ellipsis

Selene 5906

Nick Vespa

Hi, Don. I'm heading to our boat tomorrow and I plan to install a sensor on the black water tank. Would you mind giving us an update on how the sensor has been working and where you settled on locating it?


Also, I purchased two additional sensors for the fuel tanks. In preparation for the install, I noticed limitations for measuring diesel fuel. The tank can be no more than 50cm in a metal tank or with a metal reflector under a non-metal tank. I honestly don't remember that being noted when I purchased last year. Not sure if you ever tried the fuel tanks.


Thanks!


Nick

LunaSea 5318

Don McGarry

I have had really good luck with my sensor on the VIP holding tank. I found a good spot to put it and it seems to be working well.


I have not had as good of luck on my MSR holding tank. No matter where I place the sensor it seems to either read nothing or 100%. My best guess is maybe the FRP is thicker on the top of that tank. What I was going to try was replace the cap I put in to seal up the old black water sensor with one that has a flat top and then put the sensor on top of that.


Given that 'opening up' anything on my holding tank is a less than pleasant experience I have been delaying doing this.

Kevin Greene

I also have installed mine and have been using them for a 4-5 months. Don and I compared notes and we have the opposite issue. I've had no issues with the MSR holding tank, and more issues finding a suitable spot on the VIP Holding tank. The company did question whether they would work with 1" FRP (thicker than they are used to), but I think it works - maybe with a little more variation in the readings. One thought I had was to swap the sensors to see if one sensor is better than the other, but I haven't tried that yet.


A challenge with the VIP holding tank is it's a very large and shallow tank so small changes in depth are larger changes in volume. I think I may have finally found a decent location for my sensor on that tank. It is very easy to move them around, so it just takes some time to test them.


Installation is so easy and they were instantly discovered and easily added to my Victron Cerbo. The biggest challenge with this part is you have to add offset and tank depth, which takes a little work to sort out what those numbers should be with the tank thickness, sensor offset, etc.


I added a few pictures to show how they are working. I have a picture showing the readings when we're not using the heads over a couple of days, and then one when we are. You'd want to see a stair step as you flush. I see that, especially with the MSR head. Not quite as good with the VIP, but it still moves up as expected and provides far better info than the Tank Watch 4 light meter.


Overall, I do think I'm getting a good picture of the levels, and you can just average out the noise.


Kevin

Endeavor 5329

Nick Vespa

Thanks, Kevin. What height values (empty, full, and offset) are you using for the VIP tank (5318 has only the VIP tank at 70 gallons) and where is the sensor current sitting? Also, what tank mode for the sensor - small, medium, or large?


Thanks!


Nick

LunaSea 5318

Kevin Greene

Sensor set to small (0-50cm)

Sensor value when full 4.7cm (offset)

Sensor value when empty 22.0cm


Your tank may require slightly different numbers as it's a 70 gallon vs 65. These are easy to change, but hopefully it gets you started.


My sensor is now at the aft end of the tank. It's not ideal as they don't like them close to a side of the tank, but every spot I tried in the middle had issues. What I've also seen is these tanks have different locations for the various items mounted, so I'd just start with what looks like a good spot away from as many things as you can and towards the center and then adjust from there if you have issues.


Kevin

Endeavor 5329

Nick Vespa

This is helpful. I remember seeing a sensor value of 27.5cm when placed on the tank under the middle stateroom bunk. I'll give it another go when I get back to the boat in a couple of weeks.


Thanks, everyone!


Nick

LunaSea 5318

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