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Doug Keiler

9/12/2024 9:17 AM

Spent the night on the hook on our way to the east coast rendezvous. We normally shut the generator down around 8 and run all 110 loads off the inverter.

Unfortunately got a low voltage alarm around 2AM.

The house battery bank uses Lifeline 6V 400 AH AGM batteries. They are about 8 years old; believe I need to replace them prior to heading south in Nov.

I’d appreciate recommendations on batteries. Is it worth paying the premium for lifelines or are there equally good alternatives?

Thanks,

Doug

Calypso

59-019

Rob Langford

9/12/2024 9:38 AM

Doug if you spend any amount of time at anchor I would suggest you explore replacing with LiPo batteries. The ability to drawdown past 50% and charge at significantly faster rates than flooded or AGM make them by far the best upgrade I have ever done to my boat.

Several owners have put in LiPo and there are many different approaches. Some time spent researching online will yield lots of information.

Cheers

Rob

Big Smile

Selene 5366

Rob Langford

robklangford@gmail.com

Mike Young

9/12/2024 10:30 AM

I guess I'm a dummy. What does "&nbsp" mean.

Mike Young, No Sheet

Richard Nye

9/12/2024 10:52 AM

Doug,
I just created a hybrid AGM and LiFePO4 house bank with about 1000AHr @ 24vdc. I know you're not supposed to mix the two chemistrys, but I think I did it in a safe way with a novel component.

There are several advantages to both LFP and lead, but the biggest one is I didn't have to replace all my chargers and inverter/charger.

I used 4 460Ahr 12v Epoch LFP batteries and 2 210Ahr 12v Lifeline AGM.

I'll be at the rendezvous also (but sadly Untethered will not). I can explain in detail what I did.

I went with LFP due to the long life (we anchor out about 200 days a year), increased bank capacity, faster charging, and more efficient batteries. It's a game changer.

Richard
Untethered, 57-2×

Greg Groome

9/12/2024 11:20 AM

I just switched from similar Lifeline AGM's to LiFPOs...can discuss and show N tell at the rendevous. We were having similar problems with our lifeline AGM and discovered one bad battery but if your batteries are eight years old, they're probably toast.

Would I pay the premium for lifeline again , probably , but they are close to double what a " normal" AGM costs.

I went LIFPO's For the same reason, Richard Nye stated... I now can run all nite with my 110 stuff happily sucking down amps Without fear of the inverter or cutting out and thst includes a 110 V air conditioner in the owners cabin.

Not cheap... 4 Epoch 460's are close to
$7200 plus whatever else you need to buy

Greg & Glenda Groome
126 Rappa Run Rd
Topping Va 23169
(804)241-8788

Mark Tilden

9/12/2024 12:43 PM

Mike:

  is an HTML markup Tage that means "non-breaking space" (i.e. a space in the text where the line should not be broken by inserting a carriage return).

Not sure where you saw that, but it should have been invisible. It has no meaning to a reader.

Mark

Joe Faria

9/12/2024 4:34 PM

Hi Doug, That is a daunting project that I have been considering too. If you are considering LiFePO4 batteries, take a look at signature solar rack system. The entire rack and batteries will be cheaper, provide almost twice the power per battery at half the weight.

They have some variations but here is the link and attached photo of the 6 battery rack.

https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-ll-s-lithium-batteries-kit-30-72kwh-6-server-rack-batteries-with-pre-assembled-enclosed-rack-with-door-wheels-busbar-covers/

See you in Baltimore

Joe

401 Play

Don McGarry

9/12/2024 7:52 PM

The rack mount batteries are the best value for a “shrink wrapped” solution. Where were you thinking of mounting them?

Mike Young

9/12/2024 8:01 PM

Thanks Mark. I got in a text from this site from RobBig Smile. It was used twice. See below. Did you get my comment about the EC200?

Mike

Doug if you spend any amount of time at anchor I would suggest you explore replacing with LiPo batteries.  The ability to drawdown past 50% and charge at significantly faster rates than flooded or AGM make them by far the best upgrade I have ever done to my boat. 

Several owners have put in LiPo and there are many different approaches. Some time spent researching online will yield lots of information.

CheersRobBig SmileSelene 5366

Rob Langfordrobklangford@gmail.com

Doug Keiler

9/13/2024 8:13 AM

Mark

Thanks for the test plan. Will be a little while until I can get it done but will complete it prior to moving forward with a changeout.

For the group

Great input. Thanks. Honestly I’m surprised at the almost 100% recommendation to shift to Li. I hadn’t considered the shift given the bad press regarding systems with two different battery types. Given the recommendations, Seems that there are safe solutions.

Calypso has twin engines, each with a Balmar high output alternator with duo-charge for each bank. Additionally I have 6 master volt chargers, four for the house bank, one for the engine/generator and one for the thruster banks.

I’m looking forward to our discussions at the rdvu.

Thanks

Jon Dustin

9/15/2024 3:50 PM

Hi,

I have been following this thread and just wanted to say my sparky flatly refuses to install Li-Po batteries without steel boxes etc. Aside from that has anyone had any experience with a small silent portable petrol/diesel generator that could be run at anchor rather than using the Onan (in my case) to keep the batteries topped up. I have four 215ahr and I know they will not be enough. Any input will be kindly accepted. Jon, Andante 43-31 NZ

Don McGarry

9/15/2024 5:21 PM

Curious - why “steel” boxes?

Pre-packed LiFePO4 batteries that use prismatic cells that should maintain some degree of compression to prevent swelling but that can be easily accomplished with a lot of materials. The Epoch batteries are extremely well constructed and are waterproof.

My plan is to build my own batteries using the EVE cells. I’m going to construct a box for them out of either PVC or HDPE (starboard). Both are extremely strong for this kind of task and you don’t need to worry about corrosion or rot. You can easily seal them up to maintain some degree of water resistance. And they are insulators.

I considered a bunch of potential materials but anything that is a conductor (even a mild one like stainless) was quickly ruled out for safety reasons.

Jon Dustin

9/15/2024 7:59 PM

Fire and future Insurance Don.

He suggests that it will only take one or two fires involving these batteries for Insurance Companies to either, hydraulic premiums or have a clause relating to battery causing fire.

Richard Nye

9/16/2024 10:19 AM

John, the best small generator to keep your batteries topped off might be solar. Less costly to purchase and maintain than a small generator, and silent too. Try to install as much as you can. You will use it.

Mark Murray

9/16/2024 10:37 AM

Last winter I installed 4 Epoch 460 ah LiFePo batteries for my house bank and 1100 watts of solar. After installation, my electrical man did an inspection, all was correct and the systems does everything I need it to do. I also renewed my starting bak and thruster batteries with AGMs, as the draw from the engine and thrusters will shut down the BMS of the LiFePo batteries. House and starting batteries are full separated. I also installed Vectron controller and monitors. The house bank is on engine alternator is a Balmar 310Ah with a M618 to control output to the house bank. On board chargers are Promariner, one for the house bank, set for LiFePo and the other set for AGM.

We spent a couple of weeks in the Bahamas without issue, clearly very quite! I also checked my insurance company and there was no prohibition for LiFePo batteries.

Mark Murray

FREEDOM 5326.

Jack Burgess

9/13/2024 8:17 AM

On Shangri-La, 5388, the original factory 1000ah agm battery bank miraculously lasted almost 9 years. When it failed it did so slowly and I replaced with knockoff lifelines that lasted only 4 years. Last cruising season I ordered 1200ah's of Lifeline agm's on the first pass going north by Rodney Bay, St. Lucia, and had them installed a month or so later when traveling through south on the second pass. I did not have the time for a system reconfiguration so went with the simplest solution. I am now having a 2400 watt solar installation performed, substantially upgrading the 1000 watt system we previously used. In the Caribbean latitudes the sun almost always shines (and the trades never stop blowing) so solar and wind turbines are plentiful.

Jack Burgess, Shangri-La 5388

Corey Chamness

9/13/2024 9:29 AM

We are in mid-upgrade of a multi-phase project for Leizu. We added 600ah of 24v lithium ion phosphate batteries for the house bank a few years ago. Last week we started installing two 5000w Victron Quattro inverter/chargers that will provide seamless ability to provide 240v AC, better charge the house bank and eliminate a small current leak to dock. We will then have a hybrid of Mastervolt and Victron electrical systems. At some point in the future we will expand our house bank, add solar, upgrade alternator on one of the engines and autostart/remote start for the Generator.

Mark Tilden

9/12/2024 12:31 PM

Hi Doug:

Yes, you *probably* need to replace your batteries, but before you go to that expense, I suggest you do a bit of analysis using amp-hours vs. voltage as a measure.

If you have a recording amp-hour meter (like the Victron BMV 712 or Xantrex XBM or Link 10), you can pretty easily run an experiment:

1. Fully charge the batteries.

2. Turn on a load that is similar to what you use at anchor (it's not critical that it be exactly the same).

3. At 15-30 minute intervals record the number of amp-hours the batteries are down from full and the terminal voltage of the batteries. (The Xantrex XBM actually had a little extra computer interface module that would do this automatically.....I don't know if the Victron unit does).

4. Create a graph of amp-hour discharge vs. terminal voltage.

In a healthy battery bank, the terminal voltage will stay relatively flat, with a slow decrease, until the batteries reach about 50% state of charge., After that, you'll see the terminal voltage start to drop off more dramatically. If the terminal voltage stays pretty constant out to 50% or more, your batteries are probably fine. If the terminal voltage drops significantly before 50%, the batteries probably need to be replaced.

My boat (which is only slightly newer than yours) had the Vision 2V batteries in it originally. I replaced them with the same batteries about 8 years ago. They're still doing pretty well, but I'm beginning to see evidence of the batteries getting tired. They used to stay well above 24V down to 50% state of charge, and they're not just about 23.9 - 24V at 50%, so I suspect I'll need t replace mine within the next year or two. I will be moving to Lithium batteries on this round. My favorite currently are the Victron lithium batteries, but I'll re-examine that choice when the time comes....

Mark Tilden

Selene 60-20 "Koinonia"

Nick Vespa

9/12/2024 12:32 PM

When we replaced our Cruisair units with CTM equivalents we decided to do an electrical refit since our AGMs were nearing end of life. Installed a Victron Quattro 48v 10KVA inverter and a Victron Autotransformer, with two 304ah 48v EVE cells DIY batteries and a 304ah 12v EVE CELLS DIY battery. We also installed a Balmar 48v secondary alternator with Zeus external regulator on the main. Ran well on a trip from Hampton, VA to Annapolis and back with stops along the way. Only ran the gen once for a couple of hours while on anchor to top off before bed. Will have 1200w of solar added this month. Very happy so far. We were able to run the AC and induction cooktop with no problem. DIY (with the help of an AYBC electrician at Tiffany Yachts in Burgess, VA) saved a lot. I know that's quite a bit more than just replacing batteries, but I view Lifepo4 as a system, so it made sense to do the electrical refit.

Happy to discuss.

Nick

LunaSea 5318

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